Freesound Forums

Nope.
Sounds + effects must equal 6.

alien sir, you should probably edit your first post in this discussion thread with these small clarifications so that others with almost-similar questions need not read the entire thread. A lot of useful clarifications, though, thank you for them all!
schluppipuppie, i feel you are going to go for the 1 sound and 5 fx combo.
and a question: can we perhaps make another thread (sticky if possible) for a dare users intro/ bio? it'd be interesting to read and communicate more with fellow darers. i'd like to, for one of the future dares, collaborate with someone.

afleetingspeck wrote:
alien sir, you should probably edit your first post in this discussion thread with these small clarifications so that others with almost-similar questions need not read the entire thread. A lot of useful clarifications, though, thank you for them all!

schluppipuppie, i feel you are going to go for the 1 sound and 5 fx combo.

and a question: can we perhaps make another thread (sticky if possible) for a dare users intro/ bio? it'd be interesting to read and communicate more with fellow darers. i'd like to, for one of the future dares, collaborate with someone.

afleetingspeck wrote:
alien sir, you should probably edit your first post in this discussion thread with these small clarifications so that others with almost-similar questions need not read the entire thread. A lot of useful clarifications, though, thank you for them all!

afleetingspeck
and a question: can we perhaps make another thread (sticky if possible) for a dare users intro/ bio? it'd be interesting to read and communicate more with fellow darers.

afleetingspeck
i'd like to, for one of the future dares, collaborate with someone.

Given the limited use of efects, the current dare is probably not a very good one for collaborations. But anything is possible and entirely up to the participants.
If I may suggest something, here are the ways I would like 'daring' Freesounders to approach collaborations:
1) if you think it would be a good idea to collaborate with someone (they use the same software, you make similar music, you like their music... or any other reason), send them a PM.
2) Even better... if you just want to collaborate and are happy to collaborate with anyone, just make a post in the discussion thread asking for a collaborator.

Anyone wanting to collaborate will have the best chance if they make their public or private request just after a new dare is announced and before each person starts working on a piece on their own.

afleetingspeck wrote:
and a question: can we perhaps make another thread (sticky if possible) for a dare users intro/ bio? it'd be interesting to read and communicate more with fellow darers. i'd like to, for one of the future dares, collaborate with someone.

Here:
http://www.freesound.org/forum/dare-the-community/32171/?page=1#post59886

I will see if it can be made a sticky.

what about filter and filter-envelope? Two FX or one?

schluppipuppie wrote:
what about filter and filter-envelope? Two FX or one?

For all effects that have an envelope or LFO this is not an additional effect, it simply is a means of controlling the effect.
Instead of an LFO or envelope you could use automation in your DAW, or you could use a midi controler to tweak parameters of the effect in real-time and record your 'performance'.
All of the above are allowed.

Im working with Fl-studio and use the sampler a lot.
There is a button under "precomputed effects" that says "normalize"
I think all it does is "normalizing" the volume of the sample compared to the rest of the piece.(not sure)
Is this considered to be an effect?

To normalize a sample means to take the loudest volume point(s) of that sample and amplify the volume of the whole sample so those points are at odB.

This does not count as an effect.

AlienXXX wrote:
To normalize a sample means to take the loudest volume point(s) of that sample and amplify the volume of the whole sample so those points are at odB.

This does not count as an effect.

Thanx, wonder what the Effect of this dare will be

There are still a few grey areas in the rules that I need clarification on. This one:

"You are allowed to play them at a different speed to change the speed/pitch. - If you use any 'sound stretching' techniques or programs that counts as an effect."

If I'm not mistaken when I change the bpm in Reason when I already have my samples loaded it will play them at a different speed without altering the pitch. This is allowed by the first part of your rule. However if I use the timestretch function which does the exact same job, that is disallowed by the second part of the same rule! As far as I'm aware the software uses the same algorythm - its just two different ways of doing the same thing and no one would know which method I used. I'm not being querilous... but I like timestretching samples and just want this clarified before I start mucking about.

What version of Reason have you got? Is it version 6?
Up to version 5, Reason did not have time stretching algorhythms. In version 6, Reason essentially fused with Record and became a more standard DAW (it is now able to work with audio and allow audio editing as all other DAWs).

The change speed and pitch that I refer to is the most basic way of changing the pitch of a sample, simply by playing it at a different speed - just like playing a vinyl record or a tape at a different speed from the speed at which the audio was recorded will change the pitch.
Early samplers (hardware and software) only offered this option to change pitch of samples.

The purpose of this dare is to be a training ground for more minimalist challenges to come in the future.
I have taken the view that 'minimalist' does not necessarily mean that the music itself has to be sparse and simple, but rather that something in the music has been minimized, i.e., restricted.
In this case the restriction is that if you want to use more effects, then you have less sounds to put through those effects

So... to the point and to answer your question...
I have decided to allow some basic manipulations which do not count as effects, such as applying volume envelops, cutting and trimming samples, playing the sample in reverse or at a different speed.
By 'timestretching' I refer to all algorhythms used to play a sample at a different pitch without changing its lenght (or vice-versa, to play the sample at the same speed or bpm but with a different pitch). This is an 'advanced' manipulation and as such must count as an effect.
Different DAWs call this by different names (audio-stretching, elastic audio, audio wrapping,...) and some can apply this by deafault when the tempo is changed (like Reason is doing for you)... So please be carefull and don't forget to count it as an effect.

Hope this clarifies - I will also edit the dare post to add this clarification in.

EDIT: and by the way, thank you for your questions. Hope this helps to clarify for yourself and others.
At the end of the day, nobody gets shot for missing or missunderstanding a rule, you guys know that . If anyone has made a piece already and realizes they missunderstood one of the rules they just need to say and it is not a big deal.

Ummm.. I'm still confused by this..

"By 'timestretching' I refer to all algorhythms used to play a sample at a different pitch without changing its lenght (or vice-versa, to play the sample at the same speed or bpm but with a different pitch). "

That's the same thing either way you look at it. ie changing the pitch _without_ timestretching. THe old-school way was like you say recording at different speed and slowing down/speeding up the tape to shift the pitch which of course made the recording shorter or longer in time length. You were not able (to the best of my knowledge), to shift the pitch without altering the time length. With digital recording and software it is easy to alter the pitch without altering the time length, or to alter the time length without altering the pitch. So you can slow down vocals without getting that slow deep effect or speed up without the "chipmonk" effect. When yu load your sample into a sampler and play at a lower pitch it will also slow down the speed or faster at higher octaves. So I understand that that is allowed, but altering the time lenght at the same pitch is not allowed? Does that mean I can't use the triangle bell sample at anything other than 140bpm which is what its recorded at? Unless I alter the pitch? I could cut bits out of it and paste them on the beats I want but that is essentially timestretching! I can cut up the Slow Down Dwight sample into micro segments spaced out and that would also be timestretching or making a graintable. Am I allowed to do that?

Interesting discussion..

btw - someone was mentioning Steve Reich in relation to phasing and time shifting. He was a pioneer and visionary in this field. In fact he mooted the idea of timestretching recordings without altering the pitch long before the tecnoledgy was around to accomplish it! Anyone interested in this kind of stuff I highly recommend listening to his work.

toiletrolltube wrote:
have a look at the link.

http://www.esophagus.com/htdb/aube/

Love it, Thanks!

Puniho wrote:
Does that mean I can't use the triangle bell sample at anything other than 140bpm which is what its recorded at? Unless I alter the pitch? I could cut bits out of it and paste them on the beats I want but that is essentially timestretching! I can cut up the Slow Down Dwight sample into micro segments spaced out and that would also be timestretching or making a graintable. Am I allowed to do that?

I guess you'd need to chop and rearrange thousands of mini-segments to get an effect similar to what timestretch does. It looks like timestretch and pitchshift is the default setup nowadays! Ten years ago it almost didn't exist in sequencers as it does now. Even sequencers were called sequencers and not "DAWs" precisely because of things like this.

If you want the bell sample to be played at anything other than 140, just cut at least one 'ting' and drop it into a sampler, then play it at whatever bpm you like. And that is definitely NOT timestretching.

Timestretching IS allowed, but counts as an effect.
Speeding up/slowing down samples is allowed and does not count as an affect.
That is the main difference between these 2 methods as far as the dare is concerned.

Someone mentioned cutting up the triangle loop and recreating it at a different speed. This is known as 'loop slicing' or just 'slicing'. If you do it manually, it does not count as an effect.
There are tools and plugins that do this for you (e.g. Recycle by Propelerheads). Using these tools is also allowed, but counts as an affect.

Finally, on the subject of granular effects. One of the things these allow is to do 'time-stretching' of sounds.
Granular effects count as one FX, as you would expect.

Not allowed...
The only thing not allowed are plugins and tools classified as 'spectral'. the reason being that they are too powerfull and seemed out-of-context for this dare (i want you people to struggle a bit, he?!), i do want you to feel limited by the restriction on number of samples and effects and think creatively. That is why spectral effects are not allowed.
Some time-stretching algorhytms are 'spectral', but because they are limited to do time-stretching only they are ok to use.

bebops wrote:

Puniho wrote:
Does that mean I can't use the triangle bell sample at anything other than 140bpm which is what its recorded at? Unless I alter the pitch? I could cut bits out of it and paste them on the beats I want but that is essentially timestretching! I can cut up the Slow Down Dwight sample into micro segments spaced out and that would also be timestretching or making a graintable. Am I allowed to do that?

If you want the bell sample to be played at anything other than 140, just cut at least one 'ting' and drop it into a sampler, then play it at whatever bpm you like. And that is definitely NOT timestretching.

I admit I was being slightly disingenious with this example in trying to make a point. But tecnically it is timestretching in that it uses the same method of cutting up a sample and reordering them in a different timeframe. I used this technique in the previous Dare9 submission.

Puniho,

Not sure I follow you here... Are yousaying that cutting up a (loop) sample and then placing the slices on the beats at a different bpm to recreate the initial rhythm at a different speed (with no change in pitch) is time-stretching?

AlienXXX wrote:
Timestretching IS allowed, but counts as an effect.
Speeding up/slowing down samples is allowed and does not count as an affect.
That is the main difference between these 2 methods as far as the dare is concerned.

er.... I used ableton's tempo control to speed up the entire song tempo. is that an "effect"? If so I've gone over the limit.

thatjeffcarter wrote:
er.... I used ableton's tempo control to speed up the entire song tempo. is that an "effect"? If so I've gone over the limit.

tempo adjustments by themselves are not an effect: your song can have whatever tempo and signature changes you want.

However, Ableton Live by default assigns "warp" mode to large audio clips (samples). As you make tempo changes, Ableton Live will stretch any clips that are set to warp mode so they play in line with the song tempo.
If you had any clips set to warp mode, you may have innadvertedly used Ableton's time-stretching.

Not a big deal. But thanks for bringing it up.
If the tempo changes were small, the effect should completely be unnoticeable.
The reason why I asked for time-stretching to count as an effect is that I know extreme sample stretching (10x, 100x, 1000x, etc) is a popular audio manipulation technique to completely transform sounds.