Freesound Forums

Puniho: I'd love to try your patches, but I've only got Reason 5. Also, I back your idea. I think it'd be nice to perhaps have a sticky(?) for composition related material in the production techniques? However, the reason (no pun intended ) I think this discussion thread serves as a better option for dares is because people are less likely (if you are lazy like me) to go to another thread to specifically find out how a particular dare was done. In this instance, in the discussion section for a particular dare, I do think it will be easier to find such methods and discussions. What I, again, do agree, though, is that it does tend to get a little bit fragmented and off-topic.

bebops: oh, I think, even though on the surface it doesn't appear as such, think about this: Reason has a redrum (sampler), NN-19 (sampler) and NN-XT (sampler). I think it's pretty usable as a sample-oriented tool. And you are absolutely right about the panning, but you are talking to a tad-bit lazy guy here. It's must easier to just program them as different samples.

afleetingspeck wrote:
Puniho: I'd love to try your patches, but I've only got Reason 5.

That's ok, I'm pretty sure they would be compatible with earlier versions. They are NNXT patches. I'll put them on dropbox..

BTW Reason 5 now incorporates Record, so it is quite versatile. The upgrade to R5 was a "pay what you want" deal if you had R4 plus Record so I got it for $20!

There's 3 here:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/56664779/Alchemy.cmb

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/56664779/Bell.sxt

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/56664779/Lower%20Creak.sxt

They are made using samples from :

102980__jovica__layers-018-alchemic-hunting-88

104528__skyumori__door-close-sqeuak-02 2

136532__arseniiv__triangle-140-bpm-003

i have a bad question... just wanna make sure everything is ok: after posting my submission on soundcloud someone made a comment that made me to realize i had done something wrong with rearranging my cut samples, can i fix it and repost it or am i just stuck with it? thanks

Cannonrayj wrote:
i have a bad question... just wanna make sure everything is ok: after posting my submission on soundcloud someone made a comment that made me to realize i had done something wrong with rearranging my cut samples, can i fix it and repost it or am i just stuck with it? thanks

All this conversation about techniques, software, etc. is fine. It's very technical. I enjoy these kind of things, but it's something you can find all over the place. I mean there are lots of forums about computer music on the internets.

Maybe, I think, maybe the most interesting part about the dares is that they force us to work in a territory "between genres". Each dare allows two kind of submissions, right? soundscapes and music. At first I thouhgt this was a mistake, that they should be separated categories, but then I changed my mind: it's perfect! dares are made to discover a no-man's-land between music and sound! And that is what's very challenging and attractive, as I see it. And that's what freesound is all about, if you think of it: sound. not just "samples", or "music", or even "recordings", but SOUND.

I mean, If I had to describe the perfect piece for a dare it would be the mixture of a song and a soundscape, something that is halfway between the two. a perfect balance between rythm, surprise, ambience, melody, etc... Damn, it's difficult to explain when english is not your language :_)

If you were to put tags on what we do in each dare, what would it be? musique concrete? BBC Radiophonic workshop stuff? Electroacoustic music? field recording-composition? what? there is something there in the middle that is still not perfectly clear to me and makes me come back for more diggin' pleasure.

So the interesting discussion, in my opinion, would be more about "compositional strategies", just to give it a name. How do we face a new dare, what "language" do we plan to use. etc. I'm thinking a bit in the terms of Schaeffer's Traité des objets musicaux, about cadences, phrasing, etc. developing a language in which sounds speak for themselves, have their own life.

Ok, maybe I'm being carried away, I admit, but just an example of what I try to say: I discovered a blog by rachmiel, a composer and Reaktor developer with very interesting ideas. You can read a monthly column in computer music magazine by him, which is the best part of the mag if you ask me, and in his blog he proposes several "compositional challenges", an idea quite close to the ones in the dares. those are the things I'm talking about:
http://rachmiel.org/blog/?p=244

what do you think? am I getting mad?

@ afleetingspeck, thanks, will do, should i just delete the post where i submitted my entry, and delete the song off of soundcloud, and then just post the one i want to be my entry?

Cannonrayj wrote:
@ afleetingspeck, thanks, will do, should i just delete the post where i submitted my entry, and delete the song off of soundcloud, and then just post the one i want to be my entry?

If something like this happens in the future, I would propose that you just say: "Ops, I have used 11 samples, but re-read the rules and understood I should have used a maximum of 10."
And leave it at that, rather than composing another entry or 'repairing' the current one.
The worse that can happen is that people may not vote for the piece. But you should still get feedback and comments (which I think is the most important part).

bebops wrote:
If you were to put tags on what we do in each dare, what would it be? musique concrete? BBC Radiophonic workshop stuff? Electroacoustic music? field recording-composition? what? there is something there in the middle that is still not perfectly clear to me and makes me come back for more diggin' pleasure.

So the interesting discussion, in my opinion, would be more about "compositional strategies", just to give it a name. How do we face a new dare, what "language" do we plan to use. etc. I'm thinking a bit in the terms of Schaeffer's Traité des objets musicaux, about cadences, phrasing, etc. developing a language in which sounds speak for themselves, have their own life.

bebops wrote:
Ok, maybe I'm being carried away, I admit, but just an example of what I try to say: I discovered a blog by rachmiel, a composer and Reaktor developer with very interesting ideas. You can read a monthly column in computer music magazine by him, which is the best part of the mag if you ask me, and in his blog he proposes several "compositional challenges", an idea quite close to the ones in the dares. those are the things I'm talking about:
http://rachmiel.org/blog/?p=244

what do you think? am I getting mad?

Rachmiel is, of course, far more musically educated than I am. So my dare suggestions are far more crude. Given the nature of Freesound, I also have to limit my dares to sample based challenges, or something that can be brought to the context of Freesound.

I would be very interested to learn not only about the technical aspects which we have already begun to discuss (what programs did we use, how did we put the rhythm together, etc...) but also about what bebops called "compositional strategies".

What did you have in mind when you first read the dare?
What idea or ideas did you actually try to develop when you started composing?
Did you actually achieve your intended objectives with the piece you created?
What were the main difficulties you faced?

Here's my story...

I had some ideas initially. I was planning to use some off-the-wall effects. I thought, well if I can only have one or two effects, then I should make them some strange ones!
Yeah... right!
When I actually started playing around with the sounds was when I realised how difficult this would be. Normally I am free to pick my sounds, so I try to use the ones that I feel fit best... If I am restricted in the sounds I can use, I would turn to effects to force the sounds I have to behave as much as possible as I would like them to...
But in this case, I can do neither! I had a small selection of samples AND effects.

This really made me stop and think about what I was doing much more than usual. It reminded me that when I started making music in the Commodore Amiga computers using 'trackers' (almost a quarter of a century ago!) there was no such luxury as the effects we have today.
The 'tracker' programs were fairly basic sequencers. There were 4 channels (or tracks) 2 assigned to the left and two to the right (playing a proper stereo sample would use up 2 of the 4 channels!).
Each channel could only play one sample at a time.
'Effects' were limited to controlling the volume of the sample playback, pitchbends and leggato, incresing/decreasing the song tempo (yep, that was an 'effect' LOL), vibratto and - the most exciting of all - 'arpegio' (i.e., play the sample with fast step changes in pitch).
The first trackers only allowed 16 samples! Later this was expanded to 32, and then to much larger numbers (aslo helped by the fact that the later Amiga models also had more memory)
These trackers were trully minimalist systems which, by the way, the good musicians of the time managed to use to construct exquisit and complex music pieces.

So, this dare made me realize how bad I am now at something I used to be fairly good at!
After dispairing for a longtime about what samples to use and how to balance my sample/FX resources... I decided to use
92871__jamalboi101__wonderful-world
104528__skyumori__door-close-sqeuak-02
136532__arseniiv__triangle-140-bpm-003
I thought I could obtain some percussion sounds from the squeaking door sample which would be complemented (and therefore work well with) the high frequency triangle percussion.
Then I needed a source of musical (tuned) sounds. Since I did not want to 'waste' any effects to make the sound musical, I decided to use jamalboi101's synth sounds.

I would have loved to have used the female voice sample too, but that would have meant using only 2 FX...
I soon realised it was nearly impossible to work without using EQ to adapt the door sounds to be used as percussion.
I feel that most of the time, some form of reverb or delay (echo) is needed in a music piece to blend everything in and give it a space. Yes, I know I could have built the delay by hand (by placing a couple of lower volume slightly delayed copies of each sample in the sequencer. Or dupplicating all notes, slightly offset and with lower velocity than the original, if using midi)... but the convenience and my laziness (and the pressure to work quickly, having spent a lot of time deciding what samples and effects to use) just took the better of me.
So, for my only true 'free' effect, I decided to use a granulator. I thought this was something most other people would not use. So at least I would have one more or less off-the-wall effect. (Was this a good choice? In the end I think I only used it in one sample... hmmmm....)

Things were going so bad that I thought about not submitting an entry for this dare!
However, in the last 24h or so, I managed to put together some sequences and rhythms that I was finally happy with.
The resulting piece is uncomplicated. All simple ideas.
But at the same time, it sounds good to me. It is simple, but not trivial... Minimalist ?!

AlienXXX wrote:

...What did you have in mind when you first read the dare?
What idea or ideas did you actually try to develop when you started composing?
Did you actually achieve your intended objectives with the piece you created?
What were the main difficulties you faced?...

Ah, these are such important questions for self-analysis!

Here's the story with most of my compositions.
I was recently reading a book, Mixing Audio - Important Tools and Concepts, by Roey Izhaki.
The number of pages in the book just bogged me down to never reading more than 30-40 pages of it.
(Digressing, but if you EVER get a chance, just read the book even if you are not a composer! You will NOT regret it).
In one of the pages, he described some of the practices of novice mixing engineers, and I think that definition fits the best for me.
People, who are just beginning, work by trial and error whereas pros know the direction in which they want to take the composition and their knowledge and tools at disposal help them do that.
I work by trial and error. I have some 1000+ 10-20 second compositions in the last three years that I have been composing and it has only happened 2 times - literally only 2 times - that I had an idea in mind which I was able to put down in the sequencer (and both of them changed drastically anyway).
So when I start a piece, I never really have any direction. I just take a sample, play with it, and listen to a few sound it produces (by changing the pitch most of the time). The sound which I like the best I keep. Even stuff that I automate, I do not do a retake or cleanups. I simply keep what I got the first time (perhaps sometimes a second take).
This is the main reason why I am never happy with my compositions (either my entries on freesound or the other compositions I make) because they are not what I wanted them to be (or that I never wanted them to BE anything). They just are what they came out to be, and that is what you hear. And that bugs the hell out of me every single time I finish my piece -- I am never happy.
When I first read the dare, though, my only motivation is to make something that is different, but because I haven't listened to a wide range of songs (I have kept on repeating the same songs over and over again for the last 12 years or so), it is hard to be different. The styles you've been exposed to repeat themselves, and if you have not been exposed to varied styles... you know what happens next.
Just like it is important for a writer to read, it is important for a composer to listen -- and listen very carefully. This is what the best part of the freesound dares is because it forces me to listen to the different entries and it makes me go "oh wow, this could be done, too?!"
It forces me to analyze and think about what the different, lovely composers we have here must be thinking, how they must have gone about it, and what I would do to go about it differently.
None of my previous compositions outside of freesound dares were as complex as the ones I have submitted in Dare 9 and 10; and I tried making them complex because I felt it was possible to do so after having listened to the other entries in dare 8.
So the first thing that I now really look forward to on reading the opening of a new dare is: Where are klankbeeld and thatjeffcarter, and what techniques have they used in this context so that I further my arsenal of tricks in composing.
Wow, if you made it this far reading, you are something. Kudos to you, sir/ma'am.

Here you can find the Ableton Live Session with the minimalist[at]work track:
http://marcushorndt.de/download/Live/v8.2/freesound_dare10_minimalist-at-work.alp
if someone is interested.

Just wanted to say that copyc4t's epic lengthy note/vote was epic music to my eyes. Only few people are able to articulate as well as he did.

Thanks, but I wonder how much of that music comes from the 10 points you got, hahaha

copyc4t wrote:
Thanks, but I wonder how much of that music comes from the 10 points you got, hahaha

@afleetingspeck:

Well, you served me quite an assist there, scoring was too tempting
I could have said more about your piece, but the 10 points were already saying how much the groove got me; your piece made me "resonate" the most. And given the already epic length of the post, I tried not to repeat myself too much, though of course the "can't stand still" applies to your piece as well for instance. Thanks for appreciating how I elaborate, but I rather wish I could express myself in a much more compact way... or should I say... minimal?

@schluppipuppie: (from the voting thread)

About the awards, you're welcome, you really deserved yours

Dear All,

A lot has been hapenning in my life lately, so I have not had nearly as much time (or the mindframe) to post or work on music as I would like.

I always do reviews of all pieces. So here they are (albeit extremely late this time).
I apologize for the lenght of this post... But it is the only way to do more than a couple of words on each review...

---

klankbeeld - she loves me, even if I drink too much - dare 10

klankbeeld's piece has a true minimalist feel with sparse sounds and almost no effects used.
In klankbeeld's own characteristic way, most sounds are used 'as they come out of the box'.
The beauty of this piece, as with many others from kalnkbeeld is that the piece assembled in this simple way does tell a story. It also lives in the space between a true music piece and a 'sound scene'.
Klankbeeld's genius is in the way he can replace one sound for another but make you hear what he wants, in the context of the story.
Notice the triangle sounds at the end of the piece representing the clinking of glasses/bottles?

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Michael_Trickery_Phase Slow Down, Dwight

An excellent 'proof of concept', as Michael himself called it!
Illustrates perfectly the phasing effects (you can hear the sound of the vocal sample completely changing then the samples approach the in-phase setting). This sends strange spatial messages to the brain who is unable to locate the constantly phase shifting sounds - this can create the illusion of physical movement (of the sound source or the listener).
The rhythm is 'hypnotic', which again was really well achieved.

Do I 'like' it as a music piece. Yes and no. I think I would require to be in a certain state of mind to listen to it or I would get quickly bored. In the right state of mind, and especially on headphones, I can appreciate the effect and the piece itself.

I think this is a really fantastic backbone, asking for something to be built on top - maybe some piano mellodies, maybe just overlaying of other sounds?...
This would be a perfet starting point for one of our Continuum dares.
This piece more than any other made me realize that even if you are not looking to create a minimalist piece, starting with a minimalist concept is a great way to create a backbone for any piece!

Finally, I think the piece tittle is genius and worth of a prize in itself!

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Schluppiepuppie_minimalist_at_work (Sonofapreacherman)

Using only the belch sample, this is quite a complex and well achieved piece.
I do not like the second half with the broken rhythms, but that ia a matter of taste not a matter of any deficiency with the technique or the piece itself.
The first half is genius. When the bass quicks in, we are into the early days of dance music. The only thinkg missing is a scratch sample as part of the rhythmic groove (but adding that would ahve violated the rules!)

---

As klankbeeld said in his Soundcloud comment "A typical Jeff start".
As often happens with Jeff's pieces, this one does not actually tell a story. It just brings to mind a sequence of evocative piecefull images. - The image of a misty lake often comes to my mind when listenning to some of Jeff's pieces... Or floating amid bright white clouds.
This one has more rhythmic structure than previous pieces I have heard. With this rhythmic (sometimes arrythmic) structure becoming more and more evident as the piece progresses.
Personally I would have preferred the triangle sound with some reverb on it. If reverb could not be used without exceeding the number of effects, perhaps some delay could have placed the sample further from the listener and blend it better with the other sounds.
I also feel the piece ends a bit abruptly. Such a peacefull and reflective piece, I feel, should end with a very gradual fade.... almost if just floating away....

---

please slow toiletrolltube_down

Toiletrolltube's piece is a strange one. Minimalist? Certainly!
It is the sort of thing that, depending on my mood, I would either happilly listen to or quickly get annoyed with.
It is difficult to classify it. It is not actually music... It threads the border between music and noise.
The appeal of it is the dissolved, deconstructed vocals and the way things get into and out of phase.
The difficult part of it is that there is 'little to hang on to': no hook, no rhythm as such, no mellody. Listening to this piece (and enjoying it!) requires either total abstraction or considerable focus... If my mood is somewhere in between these extremes, I don't enjoy it.
However, as I myself like to point out: "the difference between music and noise is in your head". So 'noise music' is a concept to be further explored in future dares

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jgeralyn_Built to Look Weathered

Opening this piece with such a strong piercing drone is a very brave statement! I like the computer-like noises that follow.
This piece has a dual nature... it does oscilate between some buzzing sounds and the large ressonant drones.
Knowing jgeralyn's interest for architecture, I am going to have a go at interpreting this piece
... The piece illustrates the interaction between architectonic objects (buildings, spaces) and the people who use them. The large drones represent the buildings/spaces. Their strong ressonant characteristics are the ressonant properties of every (closed) space such a halls, rooms, galeries and even entire buildings.
... The little buzzing sounds are the people. Busy, moving around. You can see them like in those timed exposure movies where a camera takes a picture every minute or so and then the sequence is played as a movie. At this rate a whole day would be compressed to 24s... And you see the little human figures jumping about, clustering a nd dispersing while the buildings (obviously) stay imobile and unchanged....
Although the two elements of the music (the drone and the buzing) look disparate (like the people and the buildings) they are effectively deeply connected and one cannot exist without the other: Without the building (art gallery, lybrary, office, train station...) the people would not be at that place or performing those actions... Without the people, the building would have no purpose and thus would never have been constructed...

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Copyc4t_Speed-Limit

I can see why this is called speed limit. The sound that starts at around 7s is like a motorbike. Reminds me of the sound of the motorbikes in Enduro Racer (a game I played as a child in my Spectrum +2).
At around 25s a mellody sequence that really sounds like the theme from 007 makes an appearence. But the whole sound of the the piece really makes me think of the track for a racing game from the days of the C64 or similar.
I would say that is a very minimalist piece.
Don't like the slowed down voice sample - it is a bit of a cliché.
I like the ending, though. Unnexpected but quite effective.

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bebops_(ramacod)_dwights bad dream - freesounds dare10

Very good rhythmic use of the vocal sample. A number of phonemes that I never thought were actually present in the initial sentence, and very interesting sequences.
Although the phonemes keep changing all the time, the rhythmic sense of the piece is kept throughout!
Bebops mentioned that he did not like being forced to fill the 6 slots. He would have preferred a "at least" 1 sample + 1 effect.
The only thing I do not like about this piece is the constant panning of the sound - suspect that is the "stereo ennancer" effect, rather than actual panning that was 'programmed in'?
I love the filter effect (it is precisely the sort of effect that a piece like this is calling for). The flanger is not very obvious. The reverb is welcome.
I am not too sure if the multiband compressor was required (although I can see in the waveform that the piece is obviously compressed). I have not heard it uncompressed, but I would guess it makes the whole more consistent in terms of volume, so the different clips of the vocal sample all play at approximately the same volume - Otherwise it might be awkward as some snippets are loud and others quite faint. But I guess, unless the vocal cut-up was being made in realtime, this could be addressed simply by adjusting the volume of each sample. Maybe I am wrong...
So, really the only effect I think you probably could have done without was the stereo enhancer and perhaps have used that slot to bring another sample into the mix (some percussion sounds, maybe?) and make the piece more varied.

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afleetingspec_Voices in the head

No doubt, one of the best entries in terms of overal quality!
Great use of the "ts" phoneme as as hihat sound and "Down", "Deh" (and others) in a rhythmic form. The pitching of samples is nice and not cheezy at all, fitting the groove.
I would have preferred for something to be done to the percussive sample to give it more 'boom' - But I accept that the limitations of the rules woud not allow for the use of EQ
I think the whole piece works wonderfully, the tempo change even giving it a little bit extra surprise factor.
Now that the dare is done, this is a piece that I would definetely recommend you go back to and polish to perfection (no restrictions on the use of effects).

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OSH37_Dare_10 - Knocking

Stars OK with the echoing and 'gated' triangle sounds. But the beats that come in at around 30s are too rought for my taste.
Strictly speaking, the Ableton Live Simpler should not have counted as an effect - I said that it was allowed to load up samples onto a sampler. If the sampler onboard effects (including the filter) were used these should be counted, but just loading the sample to a sampler so it could play against midi notes was not
Never mind. Lets not get too hung up on the detail of the rules.
The mellodic parts of this piece and the use of delay is actually quite good, the rhythm itself is also good - it is the roughness of the 'percussive' sounds used that spoils it a bit for me.

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Kyster_Triangular bells - Dare 10

A piece that could stand in the spooky style on its own - never mind the minimalist dare!
Only 1 sample and 3 effects used.
This piece is a very good example of the 'minimalism' I was aiming for in this dare. It contains both rhythmic and mellodic elements.
It does not feel constrained, in the sense of feeling limited by the dare rules in an un-natural way. Listenning to it, it seems like the author would not have chosen to do anything differently if he had access to unlimited sounds and effects.
Finally, the piece is strongly emotional. It transmits strong emotions to the listener.
I think Kyster pulled it off very well by aiming his piece at a niche theme - spooky. For that specific type of sound all his choices were very appropriate. In fact, Kyster was even more minimalist than required since he only used 1 sound and 3 effects... leaving 2 slots free
He also used one sample that I choose to use and then regreted my choice a little. Obviously Kyster was more proficient at making his samples do what he wanted it to do than I was !
Finally, the choice of tittle was spot on as it references both the triangle sample which he choose to use and "tubular bells" which is recognized as a minimalist piece.

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Escortmarius - Don't think Dwight will slow down

A piece that has a good rhythm/groove. Good kick drum sound (clever sound manipulation there, Marius!)
I also liked the mellody elements. Marius has pulled off a piece that you can definetely dance to!
On the minus side the piece overshoots the 4min time limit, which I think really is a shame as the piece does not contain enough variation. I would have preferred a version with approx 3min.
This is also a piece that could be expanded/improved upon outside the context and limitations of the dare. Without the limitation on effects and samples a LP filter with high resonance can be applied to parts of the bassline (automated or modulated by a tempo synced LFO) and some pads or synth sounds can even be overlayed on certain parts. Maybe a bit of reverb on the vocal too?
I will say it again that I am impressed by the kick drum sound.

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saoe - soneproject - half dozen minimalist

Interesting pad sounds. Like the use of the "ts" phoneme for rhythm.
The vocal really blends well within the mix (suspect due to good volume setting and EQing). Funny soneproject said "all done on a korg microsampler then recorded on the pc wich explains the quality loss and the abscence of mix."
The mix is great! Don't know what you are talking about, man!
Only used 3 samples + 2 effects... But I will let him off
This is a very good first entry: Mellodically very pleasing and with a very well balanced mix. Well done!
On the minus side I m not much of a fan of the 'synth' sound
Also I found the ending a bit bland. Could have ended with a chord?

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Cannonrayj - ro unit - meleduct

I like the starting strings! Cut up vocal samples! And this growing metallic sound in the background!... Excellent!
Strictly speaking, in terms of effects: detuning is listed twice (each effect could be used an unlimited number of times)... and detuning would not even count as an effect!
So... all of this with 0 effects! Impressive!
I think the keymark of this piece is the use of reversed out vocal fragments.
The only point for improvement I would suggest is that some of the vocal fragments sound a little bit harsh. I would consider putting the whole vocal track(s) through a slight lowpass filter or perhaps a tape emulation.

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Puniho - Mr Dwight Rides again

This piece really has 2 parts... The first one is sort of a bad dream or flashback. The way the samples are played makes me thing of those dreams where the same scene repeats over and over again.
The second part of the piece is less serious. There are some funny rhythms and sample manglings. And even a sound that is a like a whistle.
This piece has a number of interesting ideas and use of samples and it certainly creates an interesting mood.
On the minus side, the first and the second half of the piece do create different moods and the 'bad dream' mood of the first half does not necessarily fit very well with the funier mood of the second half.
Consider taking each of the two parts separately and extending them and developing their mood further.

thanks for your comments, AlienXXX.
your dedication is impressive, as usual