Freesound Forums

Hello everyone! I had an idea I wanted to share.

So it should be pretty obvious to anyone who's uploaded audio here (or anywhere else, really) that sound effect engineers don't get much credit. People can easily name their favourite musicians, directors, actors, visual artists, comedians, etc. How many of them can name their favourite sound effect engineers?

Our work is often in countless movies, film projects, video games, podcasts and other forms of media - often transforming them from something incomplete to something extraordinary.
Yet we very rarely receive the slightest modicum of gratitude or recognition (not necessarily because hate us, but because it's easy to take us for granted). And of course, it's never been easier to get away with plagiarizing audio. There are channels on Youtube solely dedicated to uploading sounds others have created, taking most or all of the credit for work someone else has sweated over. It's always been hard for any sort of artist to get known, but in today's oversaturated markets it can feel impossible or like a doomed effort. I'm not sure about the rest of you, but sometimes it just feels depressing. You give so much of your time to something and you so frequently feel invisible.

My idea was this: What if there was a movie that brought attention to this issue? It could explore just how much of a time and energy investment it can be to make sound effects, the people who make them and showcase what forms of media they're used in. I'm not naive enough to think that it would fix artistic plagiarism in any meaningful way. But it's something that's really close to my heart and I assume some of you too. I think there's potential for it to be interesting and meaningful to both audio lovers and creators and the general public. Most people don't produce sound effects, but everyone knows that audio can turn watching a movie or playing a video game into an extraordinary experience. Everyone (apart from the completely deaf, I suppose) can be profoundly moved by audio.

I'll be clear and say this is merely an idea I'm toying with. While I've uploaded videos to sites like Youtube before and done a tiny bit of video editing, I'm not a professional videographer. I've never made a documentary before and am not sure I'd be good at it. (The only area I have any significant expertise in is sound and music.) But I thought it was at least worth sharing here.

What do you think?

I'm going to post my unfiltered thoughts on the matter. Try not to take them personally.

I learned long ago that a reward is a pleasant surprise and one must be able to operate solely on the expactation of nothingness. We creators never receive credit for our work. We don't do the work because we hope to be recognized or make a profit, we do it because it makes us happy and helps us build meaningful connections with the world around us. Good things are just worth doing and the rest is all but irrelevant. This is the only motive that doesn't lead to self-destruction. If I expect to be credited, paid, and pat on the back for every little recording, this stops being a fun hobby and starts being an exercise in disappointment. You are a human being, not a dragon perched atop a hoard. If someone can make you upset simply by using or reselling your work, or by not giving you credit, you have failed as a creator. Creators are great because they don't need others' validations or agreements. They're like mountains and oceans and skies: Vast, undeniable, untouchable. With respect to their creative output and what comes of it, they need NOTHING. To be like this, one must love the work enough to let it go and let whatever happens happen.

To look at it another way: Say that in the future, archaeologists dig up and restore a computer from the present time. It has 2 games on it: Minesweeper and Secret of Monkey Island. The latter has DRM built into it. If you don't have the code wheel, you can't play. So what's going to happen? Well, everyone is going to play Minesweeper.
Minesweeper is the free sound, the sound that can be acquired and used with no hassle or restraint.
Monkey Island is the paid sound, the sound laden with requirements and caveats.
Even if Monkey Island is better, looks better, sounds better, it's a pain in the ass to deal with, and the people who defend its right to be a pain are asinine themselves. Nobody in their right mind likes or wants that. It's only something people put up with because this sort of thing is everywhere and has been normalized.

Digital items can be reproduced and copied infinitely. This is a strength and an advantage they have, and it only makes sense for us to play to the strengths and tendencies of things rather than try to turn them into something they are not. Information - sounds, images, stories, whatever - must be free, and flow freely, in order for the digital medium, the Internet, and the human race to reach their respective potentials. The individual profit motive has almost no place in such a vision. It's not a matter of economics, politics, or philosophy, for I have no affiliation with any of them, nor will I ever. It's just the view I have found most pragmatic, because it's immune to corruption and ruination.

Now, as for why you should care about this viewpoint: I won't say you should or you shouldn't. But it's there, and I'm here, in the event that your project progresses to the point that you're writing a script and want to include someone like me to provide contrast or play devil's advocate. I'd maybe be interested to do that. I wouldn't be interested to debate or argue the points raised while here in this thread, though. Best of luck!

Lol, it's one thing to have an opinion and yours may be the correct one. But you've gone beyond that to state that there is only ONE right way to be a creator and ONE attitude we should embody. You claim that to do otherwise is to have "failed as a creator". Nothing you wrote indicates any willingness to explore the possibility that your truth may not be the truth everyone else should embrace. There's no nuance or compromise or balance, just all-or-nothing thinking. Seems a liiiittttle over simplistic.

I don't take your thoughts personally, I just can't take them seriously.

Did it become popular at some point to have no reading comprehension ability? It is what the words MEAN, not just what they SAY. Well, no matter.

You asked for others' thoughts and I provided them. Shame on me for doing that, I suppose. I simplified my life and found incredible happiness through following the very same advice I've given. I should have known better than to try sharing it. Just let people be as they are.

My post will still be here when you've had time to think more and live more. Have fun letting your attachments to every little thing rule over you; I'm done here. No hard feelings, and best of luck with your project. I encourage all creative efforts when I can.

The documentary idea sounds interesting. There have been small scale things like that before. I seem to remember seeing something about Ben Burtt and Star Wars, but it may have been a print interview.

Organizations such as Cinema Audio Society (CAS) and Motion Picture Sound Editors (MPSE) do recognize high achievements in sound work, through awards, publications, online events, etc. Check them out. As a member of CAS, I get the journal, which has a lot of "behind the scenes" articles, though most of those deal with mixing, since the CAS is primarily for mixers. In the sound for picture industry (an it is an industry), sound effects editing is actually a glamor job. In my opinion (after 50 years), I consider dialogue editors as the real unsung heroes.

If you have been able to earn income from something you love, count yourself fortunate. We do this because we love it - for some strange reason. Any pay is a bonus.

As I read strangehorizon's reply, the crux is:

Creators are great because they don't need others' validations or agreements. They're like mountains and oceans and skies: Vast, undeniable, untouchable. With respect to their creative output and what comes of it, they need NOTHING. To be like this, one must love the work enough to let it go and let whatever happens happen.

Piracy is a fact of life nowadays. If someone claims your work as their own, it is aggravating, but you could look at it as a compliment. The work is good enough that they want to claim it as their own. The nice thing about online/digital piracy -- if there is such a thing -- is that it is easy enough to show that your work predated theirs.

For the record, I don't have a problem with you sharing your thoughts. I had a problem with how the idea that if a sound engineer believes they should receive recognition or a modicum of reimbursement for what they do, that's indicative of failure as a creator. I find that dismissive and too simplistic. I actually do think most of what we do should be about creating for the sheer joy of it. I just think there's also there's a place for recognition - and even pay at times - when someone does something that benefits society. If anything I was a bit surprised you shot that notion down so forcefully. Especially given that we're members of a platform where a lot of people want to be attributed for their hard work, and rightfully so I'd say.

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strangehorizon wrote:
Did it become popular at some point to have no reading comprehension ability? It is what the words MEAN, not just what they SAY. Well, no matter.

You asked for others' thoughts and I provided them. Shame on me for doing that, I suppose. I simplified my life and found incredible happiness through following the very same advice I've given. I should have known better than to try sharing it. Just let people be as they are.

My post will still be here when you've had time to think more and live more. Have fun letting your attachments to every little thing rule over you; I'm done here. No hard feelings, and best of luck with your project. I encourage all creative efforts when I can.

"

EDIT: Just nevermind.

Thanks for your feedback! I didn't know about the Cinema Audio Society or MPSE, thanks for bringing them up. I'll have to check them out indeed. I didn't even know that dialogue editing was a job.

I actually agree with strangehorizon that we should be doing what we do for the sheer joy of it. I was just surprised at their assertion that any desire for recognition or reimbursement is indicative of creative failure or a lack of personal growth. I think that's unfair and overly simplistic, especially on a platform where people are expected to attribute others for their work if it's released under that license.

allegedly ...

" there are more astronauts on earth than there are working Foley artists".

There is a wormhole (strange space-warpy sound effect) burrowing through, shorting (strange electric jacob's ladder foley) and inverting (upside-downy rotating waffly Wurlitzer sound effect) and unifying all sides of the logic in this thread (Disembodied Mr Spock sound effect).

(^^Footnote)
Somebody who wants to spend as much of his/her time as possible creating and playing and living with sound couldn't do better than find a position where she/he is payed to do it all day. If he/she wants creative choice and independence then they'd better go freelance and thus must acquire a customer base - which needs exposure to develop a reputation.

Oh, nearly forgot - Since He/she also needs to pay bills and feed her/his children they have little choice but to at least dip a toe into the murky cesspool of commerce. (minor key sad sting sound effect here.) But they can still keep everything above their ankles sparkly clean (Starburst DING!! from toothpaste ad sound effect).

Luv and bestest wishy things to everybody here, regardless of faith, gender or philosophy. (uplifting refrain here - maybe harmonizing Angels? I downloaded a pack by somebody well regarded on this forum but haven't had occasion to use them till now.)

Wibby xxXxx

^^ Jimmy Cliff - "We All Are One" starts playing as a background underscore track all the time you're reading this. It's on a slow fade starting .. NOW.........

Edit: Just went back and read the thread from the beginning and realize my thoughts are totally irrelevant to the topic.
Not drunk but perhaps a little sleep deprived.

Apologies, but will leave post for posterity.