Freesound Forums

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum but not that new to the recording scene.

I just bought a Sound Devices Mixpre to mate up with my Edirol R-09 and I'm wondering what line up are you guys using?
After so many years using analogue PPM meters on my old SQN I need to know why the Mixpre's meters are the way they are. I mean +16!! The way that I have done it is to send tone to the R-09 at 0db and I am going to make sure that I don't break +4db. The Edirol is set to about -7 so that a +4 peak will top out around -3. What's confusing me is the Mixpre has a scale that goes well into the red and that kind of goes against everything that I ever learned. I have also dropped the limiters down to come in at about +8 or so (at least the lowest that they can come in)

So over to you guys. Where do you line up and why?

Cheers,

Euan

Location Guy
Hi all,

I'm new to the forum but not that new to the recording scene.

I just bought a Sound Devices Mixpre to mate up with my Edirol R-09 and I'm wondering what line up are you guys using?
After so many years using analogue PPM meters on my old SQN I need to know why the Mixpre's meters are the way they are. I mean +16!! The way that I have done it is to send tone to the R-09 at 0db and I am going to make sure that I don't break +4db. The Edirol is set to about -7 so that a +4 peak will top out around -3. What's confusing me is the Mixpre has a scale that goes well into the red and that kind of goes against everything that I ever learned. I have also dropped the limiters down to come in at about +8 or so (at least the lowest that they can come in)

So over to you guys. Where do you line up and why?

Cheers,

Euan

Most often I set my Mixpre (Shure FP24, actuallY) at the 12 am mark, and the Edirol at 10. But signals are invariably quite low in my recordings, your situation may be conpletely different. I think it all depends on the source level and the output from your mics, it can be hard/impossible to give a general rule.

D

Thanks Dobriode,

So how far into the red section of the meter do you go, or do you stop only using green?

Cheers,

Euan

Hi, as had been said, analogue mixers use 0 as a kind of optimum level - full clip level is at +20 dBVU - Your Edirol, as in all digital recorders, clips at 0 with no +levels. So ideally you should set your Edirol up to receive between +6 to +16 levels from the mixer which would show as between
-12 to -3 dbFS on the Edirol. Recording at 24bit gives you plenty of headroom to record with -12 levels on the Edirol.
Cheers.

Location Guy
Thanks Dobriode,

So how far into the red section of the meter do you go, or do you stop only using green?

Cheers,

Euan

At least in my Shure all leds in row are green all the way up (+16). The only indication that signal is too hot is that the other leds, the pair just above the pots, start blinking. Orange if limiter is set, red otherwise. By the way, I customarily have the limiter at the LINK position, so it operates simultaneously on Left and Right. With the R09 recorder set at 10, and the preamp limiter acting I never had a clipping sample. Sometimes I wish I had one, but I never can get that close to my subjects

Also, it seems for the Edirol to perform NO amplification it mustn't be set it to 0, but to 8 or 10. Or so I read in the Taperssection time ago, you may check the forums

D

chipfork
Hi, as had been said, analogue mixers use 0 as a kind of optimum level - full clip level is at +20 dBVU - Your Edirol, as in all digital recorders, clips at 0 with no +levels. So ideally you should set your Edirol up to receive between +6 to +16 levels from the mixer which would show as between
-12 to -3 dbFS on the Edirol. Recording at 24bit gives you plenty of headroom to record with -12 levels on the Edirol.
Cheers.

Chipfork and Dobriode,

That was what I was actualy assuming, that Sound Devices would allow the meter to go to +16 before clip. I think they need to re-scale the meter on the new Mixpre (the last one used to send tone at +4 and peak at +12) and stop the confusion.
Thanks all, I'll re-set my levels to where I thought they should be on both, the Edirol on a -3 peak and tone set around -15 which would allow me to get right up to max signal right through the chain.

After many years in television having to line up at low level and miss out on around 10db of wasted headroom, recording for fun is a whole lot more, well, FUN!! In my front of house and studio days everything was taken to 0 (well -2) so as to ensure the most signal to noise ratio and TV must have "assimilated" me into the low level collective.

Thanks again,

Euan

here's an information I found on taperssection :
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,76699.msg1021837.html#msg1021837

oleg
the mix pre scale is ppm one , so if you want to match it to dbfs scale
the 0 dbu tone on your mixer = -20 dbfs
adjust the gain that the piks would hit the +12.+14 dbu , place the mixer limiter on the top ( +18 dbu) to prevent your recording device overload

JM Charcot
here's an information I found on taperssection :
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,76699.msg1021837.html#msg1021837

oleg
the mix pre scale is ppm one , so if you want to match it to dbfs scale
the 0 dbu tone on your mixer = -20 dbfs
adjust the gain that the piks would hit the +12.+14 dbu , place the mixer limiter on the top ( +18 dbu) to prevent your recording device overload

I've been using a MixPre with an R09 then R09HR for a couple of years now...

I leave the R09/HR at unity ~8-10 for the 09 and 40 for the HR.

I then do all the level setting with the MixPre, I try to achieve at least -12 dB on the R09 peak meters and no more than -6 dB to keep some margin for error (in 44.1 kHz @ 24 bit).

I rarely, if ever need to go past 12 O'Clock on the MixPre. If I do, I don't crank it past 3.00 O'Clock.

As noted by dobroide, it all depends on what you are recording. Like doboride, I tend to start most recordings at the 12 O'Clock position on the MixPre and see how it goes from there. Ambiences don't need to hit even -12 dB. At the end of the day, line-in on the R09 (@24 bit) + a MixPre means that final levels are really not as important as they once were, you can do plenty of gain-changes in post production with little noticeable change in the quality/noise-floor.

PS: I try to keep the MixPre peaks to the +4 dBvU (last green LEDs). Occasional flash of red is OK.

digifish

Thanks again guys.

I think I'll just go out and play with the set up. I'll record some sfuff with different peaks on the Mixpre (staying in the green and trying full scale red as well) and see how the Edirol copes.
Fun, fun, fun!

Cheers,

Euan

I forgot to say that since I got my R-09 and used it with my SQN I never had a problem with the R-09 clipping because I knew that I would max at PPM 6 (+8db over tone line-up) and peak the R-09 at -3.

I just had a wibble moment when the Mixpre gave me +16db over line up tone and wondered how good +14 would actually be.

I gues I'll find out soon enough.

Thanks again

And finally, this from Joe Ramos at Sound Devices

"The MixPre's meters have the most resolution in the higher values over +4. Red does not necessarily mean you are too hot, it is just a warning that you are in the danger zone if say a sharp loud sound suddenly happens. The MixPre has a clipping level of +14, so until you hit the very last Red LED you are still OK.
You are correct that you will want to set tone on your recorder at -14 to match the 0db tone value on the MixPre.
Output Clipping Level (Line):
+22 dBu minimum with 100k ohm load, +20 dBu minimum with 600 ohm load."

Odd metering but, hey, I'll go with it and see what happens.

Cheers,

Euan

Hi,
I'm brand new to the forum. This is my first post. I've been recording for a few years now, and most recently I'm using Rode NT4 with 9V power instead of phantom into the R-09 directly and I post process with Ozone3. I just ordered a MixPre today mostly for two reasons. One I want the benefits of a preamp (reduced noise, and line level out). Two, I thought the limiter would make my life easier so I wouldn't have to be so careful with clipping. Am I wrong in my second thought?
Obviously you still want to get the levels close, but I guess this discussion on this thread has me wondering if you all are using the MixPre with the limiter function turned off? To me the 5ms attack time and 100ms release sounded pretty decent as far as helping prevent clipping. I usually record fairly loud shows at 24 bit, and sometimes if it's really loud I'll just put the NT4 directly into the line in of the r-09 since it seems to be strong enough. Not sure if that's bad? Seems to work for me and usually I add just about 7-12 db with the volume maximizer in Ozone3 and it sounds great.
Anyway, I'm rambling a bit, but I guess I'm just looking for advice on the limiter aspects of the MixPre. I've basicaly never bothered with the "AGC" of the r-09 cause I'm pretty sure it stinks for live music.

Thanks for any tips!