Freesound Forums

Hi all.

My name is Matt Connolly, and I'm a sound editor in Brisbane, Australia.

Apart from my day-to-day work as a sound editor, I'm also developing some software technologies to make audio editing functions faster, more accurate and less repetitive and tedious.

However, I’d like to gauge the experience of other audio editors, sound engineers, composers and musicians (basically anyone who uses a digital audio recording system), of all levels of skills and experience, and see if you experience the same issues I have with current digital audio workstation packages on the market.

Please take three minutes to answer the following questions and help me gauge whether I should continue to invest my time and effort into writing new sound editing software.

Here's a link to the survey:

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=785652335407

If you know anyone else who might fit the above description and who might have a few minutes to fill out the survey, I'd appreciate you passing this message on to them.

Cheers,
Matt Connolly

All of the editing functions in DAWs rely on a visual interface where sound is represented as a waveform image. The last question is about these waveform images.
*
11. If the waveform image was replaced by an improved display method, with higher resolution waveform images that displayed more information about the sound, which of the following functions would benefit?

I got a bit frustrated at this one.

The "solution" to waveform editing isn't a new way of displaying wave forms, it's a new way of WORKING with wave-forms, zooming about. ( in my not so humble opinion )

- bram

i agree with Bram. btw friend of mine from the hku is working on a new editor for his master. He is going back to non-realtime editing but scritable and more repeatable. I think that is interesting.

<oops, start of unintended rant>
And as i said in the survey, my main grip with DAW's is not the software but the hardware. Interfacing is so un-intuitive. THe mixer paradigm just doesnt translate to DAW's at all. Sure it works for a lot of people coming form the old days. And it makes newcomers feel like they are legit, but mixers (procontrol etc) are as far as i am concerned outdated answers to a new question. IN post production, or even in the whole production scene I see so incredible little innovation and experimentation. Everybody just goes with whatever has been working well for the last 50 years. I dont mean to sound too critical about that, I am the same. I mean produciton is just that, it needs to produce, deliver, rather yesterday then next week. So its completly predictable that we aren't spending our days figuring out new and interesting ways to interact wiht our work.
However I do feel lik we really aught (spelling??) to do more experimentating. A group of people I also feel connected with and who share in some of our interfacing dillemas is those of the perfoming electronic musicians. I dont mean the dj's but the more "serious" ones in the electro-acoustic scene. They have been struggling with this for decades now because it can be soo difficult to sit and watch somebody behind a laptop and feel an emotiong coming from the performer. Why even sit there at all? "He could be reading his email" is a much heard complaint from the audience. Every year at conferences like the ICMC and at my school you can see and hear about lots of new hardware to interact to perfom. Michel Waisvisz from STEIM did some interesting early work with "the Hands".
I now own a simple dataglove myself (the infamouse p2 glove which could be found dirt cheap becuase the company went bust). and I am thinking a lil about how i could use that to interact with Nuendo for example.
I want tools that really stimulate my creativity, that inspire me to play a different tune everyday, that give me access to expression in an intuitive way, not a cognitive way. I dont wanna have to think about where to find that truck horn, I want to go to my color pallete put it on my brush smear it all over the fucking canvas and then shit on it
All the progress made with software and precision make live easier to be exact, they make it easier to do the mondain things right, that the footstep is at the right spot but they never helped me create better ideas. Why the hell not????
A lot of post-sound people complain that their work is regarded as a technical exercise and not as a creative collaborator but then why is 99% percent of what we talk about technical.
I really hope that our weird and artsy friends in the avantgarde of electronic (laptop) music/theatre/sound/whatever will help us break away from that.
</rant>

You might be interested then in Thumtronics.

I also met a guy just yesterday who is making a new performance machine which is a bunch of pressure sensitive pads (think of those dancing games at an arcade, but not just on/off, real continuous pressure sensitive pads) which generate MIDI messages , which can then be used to trigger / control samples. This guy had it feeding Reason, so a certain pad made a drum fill, another one filtered the bass, etc. and he was dancing on it. very cool.

In general, I agree with your comments - so don't feel like you are ranting just because you are thinking outside the box.

My ambition here is to try to bring new technologies (innovations and new processes) to mainstream production systems, which i use to earn my income as a professional sound editor.

I appreciate your comments. keep them coming.

thumbtronics, nice port of the accordion

Your ambitions sound great

I took the survey. I don't have much experience with professional DAWs (unless you count Final Cut Pro) so I don't know how much help I can be, but here is my advice:
1. Have a look at how non-destructive effect stacks are done in Apple's Soundtrack, I think that's something you'd definitely want.
2. I agree with bram about the display thing- you should concentrate on functionality instead of fancy displays, the current way of doing it is good enough IMO. Try to think of ways to make it easier to find the point in the audio you're looking for, and to operate on it once you do.
3. Maybe ask people if they are willing to pay money for a product which attempts to fix these issues? If you plan to charge, of course.

@Anton: I think the coolest, most forward-thinking experimental designs for realtime electronic music performance equipment are based around tactile interfaces. Audiopad is a somewhat dated but well-known example. The reacTABLE* synthesizer is newer and being developed at our favorite MTG.
Also, I see promise in using haptic feedback to improve on current control surfaces.

mmmm..... Where to start so much to offer and so little time!

After about 3 years out of the industry and now I'm pulling out the old gear dusting of the dust
It's time and the world is now ready for me....

regarding using new technologies and making the audio editing process easier and faster you will need understand what ppl are using and why the above mentioned survey is a good attempt at doing this (I had a look at it but didn’t feel it met my needs to explain what I do and how to make it easier and faster) and maybe this rant doesn’t either!!!

I consider myself (old school in digital world) meaning I started pro about 10 years ago most ppl where using notator on an Atari 1040 ST and a b/w monitor for midi with a rack of gear mostly including a D4 a sampler with 4 channels of 4sec recording, a top line keyboard while your status was based on your DAT (had to be at lease 2 x ADATS (16ch), mixer(had to be Mackie), mics(a bunch of 421's), and monitors(anything will do as long as they looked good in a photo)

Only a few months later it was time for me to invest in my own gear and get started, Cubase just hit the stands and word from over seas was it was the bees’ knees of recording real-time audio and midi. So off I went on a jet plane to Brisbane hired a car drove to the sunshine coast and in least than 10 min wrote out my house deposit on a little piece of paper handed it to me mate and then spent 1hr shoving gear into the boot of a corolla
The heart of my system was a G3 Mac, Cubase v3.5, korg1212, 24ch 4bus Mackie, couple of Adats, bunch of mics, rack of gear, a new set of Ziljian for the "studio kit" and about 300m of cabling

then the next 12months was nothing but hell, nothing sync correctly digital pops was destroying recordings and no or little support as there where only a few ppl using cubase at this time it wasn't till I realized I just spent a bucket of cash and I can't get it going I might as well jump off the local water tower and hope to land on something spiky... So on me way down with the wind blowing my hair It dawned upon me I haven’t yet thought outside of the box and I HAVE to make this work...... luckily I landed on a really big tumble weed and only ended in hospital for a week.......

To cut a long story short - when everybody around me started using protools, hardware DAWS, and anything else the best money could buy I was left alone with a bunch of stuff that nobody wanted to know about and still no jobs or recordings......

My motto to this day is - I will do the best I can with only the gear I got -
I started experimenting, I know what this equipment is capable of I just need to know how to make it work for me....

so this is what i did, By accident (don't ask how I ended up with a custom made rack mounted G3 in the boot of my car while at a live gig) all I remember is in the second set running to the car with the sound engineer to pull out my ADATS, G3 and my 300m of cabling and without interrupting the gig plugged into a spare 8ch direct outs and sound engineer subed out 8ch of live performance while I hit record on the G3 using the ADATS as only a AD converter (not for recording) then went back to the bar!

The next day the band and sound engineer walked into my lounge room where I set up a temp studio, this time using my adats as DA converter feeding into my old but never used rack of gear and as they sat and listened to a perfect recording I mixed down they couldn't get there wallets out fast enough to get their hands on the tape.......

My claim to fame, I only charged 25 bucks for my first professional recording (cover tape costs)
since then I have worked as only an independent and worked for QLD arts council, Channel 7 and 100's of live and a few studio performances
Didn't last long at channel 7 ,about a week (they didn't like the fact walking into a brand new $200 000 studio and after 4hrs went home loaded the G3 into the boot and set it up under the O2R and refused to work with gear I didn't have time to learn how to use) I used my motto and they replied with the standard thanks for coming!

So where am I now, I here you ask... Rock solid PC based cubase only using VSTi and plug-ins, 1 x ADAT,D4, a couple of cheap mics,
with a JULI@ card and my original boxed copy of Cubase V3.5,Korg1212 framed on the wall and my G3 traveling around North QLD Fulfilling its duty as I gave it away to somebody who needed it more than I did (funny though I have lost contact with that person and haven't spoken to them in 5 years)

Now That I’m old and grey (only 30 must the music industry) and a bit wiser I do actually have some input to the original topic (and you guys think you can rant)

I am always open minded and will give anything a go, I have had the opportunity to try new technologies new gear and like most dream of spending big bucks on only the best.....

But the bottom line is Producing, Production and the gear we use is an art form, an art form as individual as an artist is or the personality behind the performer. When you find something that works for you (even if it takes 10 years) I believe to sticking to your guns, Take advice from others but only you can make the final decision

I can give you 1000 reasons why cubase systems are better than all the rest but at the same time and can give you another 1000 why protools, or outboard units, an O2R, compact DAWs, I could justify spending $44 000 on a mixing desk or even $35 on a tape/radio deck to fulfill your needs

I choose Cubase as my poison because I have invested a lot of time and money into it there is no other reason
I choose VSTi and plug-ins because I no longer need my 300m of cable
I choose a Juli@ card because I no longer do large multi tracked recordings on a regular basis (if i do I insert my Korg1212 reboot into windows 98 and fire up cubase v5 track my recordings reboot back to XP cubase SX and continue the project)

If someone asks me what system should I use my first question what’s your budget
I will always recommend Cubase and the only reason for that is I can personally provide and willing to provide long term support....
(Its called networking)
If someone tells me what they are using is better than what I'm using I always agree then ask them to provide me a demo by letting me use their system (that’s how I get know what everybody else is doing its called keeping in touch without burning bridges)

the other way to look at it is 10 years ago I was producing and releasing albums with only a G3 largest project was 48 tracks of audio and 16track midi at 44.1khz
or 20 years ago a friend of mine was using 8track tape and to this day still does but now with a few edits in cool edit before burning a mix down to CD works fine for her (I wouldn't dream of walking in telling her she should be using cubase, actually I did once her reply was give me 1000 reasons why and i might think about it...oops another lesson learnt)

Now I look at the big picture...
sure everyman and his dog can go out with a budget starting at $1000 and buy the basic PC based system and produce their own album and this day this is what happens. So how does someone like me stay in business when they are providing a service to cater for high quality low budget recordings, its easy think outside of the box and look at the big picture..

The word now is BUSSINESS....
Until every house that has a CD player or media system is replaced with technology that is not compatible with today’s standards I will continue to make money. Lets face it CD technology at 44.1khz has been around before I started producing and until it is replaced I will never have to invest in any new gear, The gear I bought 10years ago has paid for itself twice including repairs and maintenance or more plus allowed me to purchase my current system I no longer purchase gear (hardware or software) unless I NEED it and I will always borrow or hire before a purchase (That’s why I network as mentioned above). and only reason I use a PC based system is there appears to be more support (I would love to head back to MAC but can not justify it as a business cost) why spend $1000's on a new flash system that can record 512 tracks 256 midi track at 192khz when for a start your final mix down is 44.1khz and you only need 32 tracks audio and 16 track of midi my G3 could do that 10 years ago and for the rest of my life my G3 will be what I compare the gear I have now, too. (if my G3 couldn't do it, I don't need it done)

Market for new technology.....
Yes I recognize the market and will support it in any way I can (will always try it and give and honest opinion)
How else will newcomers get into the game, It's exciting when someone fresh comes up to you and say, Hey I just bought this fancy new thingy or software package you should get one, I now say hey would love to but here's me number call me if you need help setting it up or you want a hand to learn how to use it.... I usually get a call a few weeks later or if I don't no lost as far as I'm concerned they doing well and I will get to meet them when they are rich and famous and they might even remember me!

So to any developers out there!
There is no one package that is the bees knees, The trick would maybe a survey (hehe) asking what ppl want, then based on your survey fulfill these needs and the real trick is market your product to the ppl who completed your survey stay in contact with them, don't just ask them to fill a survey and leave it at that.... I suggest you will want to make some money or put together a business plan before even writing the survey... just a thought (but I could be wrong, I have been before) If your willing to even write a survey you are willing to invest time and money into development, Just make the commitment and do it and use the survey to create the market not to judge if it worth doing! (A survey can be rewritten a 100 different ways to give 100 different answers this is another art form I learnt- handy when channel 7 builds a pro studio 2 blocks from your own and you create a survey showing channel 7 won't be able to support the existing market and these customers are happy with current services, worked for a while they are still there I moved 3000klms away two years later and still have contacts in the area but that’s another story)

How to keep me in touch, simple I’am going to give some suggestions and keep coming back to this forum just let me know what you are developing, maybe send me a sample to try, and I let ya know what I think.... I have no probs signing a confidentiality contract if that’s a concern with coding and long term issues maybe I could setup a Website just to promote new Australian Audio developers (oops did I mention I'm the founder of the NQMA inc, North Queensland Music Assoc. INC. A non-profit organization that supports musicians and music with promotion and support)

Here’s what I reckon!
For a start if you have to spend 100's hours editing audio maybe you are doing something wrong..
But I don't know why you are spending this time, so if ya let me know what it is you are doing I might be able to help (remixing, sampling, 4pce rock band recordings, studio live sessions or what ever)

I think the big Boys have it made remember they have been in the game a lot longer than us (steinberg, Digidesign, etc)
let them do what they do best and why compete, develop systems that can be integrated into existing systems (for and old hac like me unless its compatible with cubase I prob won't purchase it! doesn't mean You new fancy thingy is not better it proberly is but I have already spent my money once and developed my ways and can only justify spending a couple of bucks for new plug-ins etc)

Just me speaking again!
Cubase appears more user-friendly (but that might be because I know how to use it)
Visually more appealing but due to its visual, appears labor intensive on the CPU
(I still love seeing the face of a guitarist when I pull out a plugin rack of sounds and leave him to play for a while and hearing comments like "cool you even have a Marshell Stack" Does it sound as good as the real thing with 4 x 421 shoved in front of it…..NO! but who cares as long as the artist believes his money is well spent We are all happy…..)

Protools not very visual extremely fast and smooth to use, I do believe the number crunching math are better than cubase providing a more accurate sound (but I could be wrong)
samplitude has a great user-friendly CD mastering system I give that function 10/10 pity the rest of it is lacking (but I have friends producing music with it as happily as I do with cubase)
cooledit Great starter system and a great system for working with samples not very cpu intensive so an older PC can be put into action (The local radio station uses cooledit for advertising and sponsorship adds I don't mind using it)
Now at hardware DAWs eg the O2R - its like driving an Alfa (I never got to drive that Dino Ferrari) one hand on the data wheel while the other swiftly pushes the required data button) its quick and easy and every thing you need to see is available on the screen.

Here's and Idea I would purchase because I NEED
How about using a standard multimedia keyboard to interface any software package (cubase of course would have to be first trial)
Half the work is ready done by setting up single hotkey shortcuts in cubase and turning the volume knob on the keyboard just like a data wheel on the O2R
I dream of the day when I can press "1" to instantly select the volume of track 1 and using the data wheel (volume)to adjust then pushing "F1" through to "F8" to select my groups to do the same, pushing "P" will give you the selected track Pan control
just like a drummer you will soon learn the quickest way to do something is to stop moving around so much
I proberly spend 15min out of each hour of work moving a mouse around

what about midi controllers you can this that stuff with them (yep sure can but I’m not going spend $600 upwards for another piece of hardware I have to budget for repairs and/or replacement..... I don't mind spending $60.00 on a multimedia keyboard and to find the damm thing brake after 11 months and have it replaced under warranty)

Maybe all you need is a software driver that converts the keyboard to send midi control or has this been done... don't know never looked!

So what am I saying….
After a few years of experience you soon learn to adapt with what you have got
I must of spent hours wishing somebody would get all the best features of each platform and create one system that does it all but it all comes down to “It aint gonna happen”
Because you can’t please all the people, all the time.

Just a quick question how many ppl spent their teenage years debating with friends who would make the worlds best band….
Eg, Had to have Slash on guitar, the bass player from Primus, The Singer from Sound Garden and of cause I would play the drums….
But It never happened!!!! (I can still dream, can’t I)

did anyone read that?

Woah. That was like reading one of those stream-of-consciousness essays.
(No offense meant, MrMusic.)

I'll try to summarize the rant for you...

1) 10 year old gear and cubase 3.5 get the job done
2) Stick with what you have, there's no way to make a pro-tools killer. Better to produce add-ons/plugins for existing, entrenched systems.
3) There are some ideas for hardware interfaces past paragraph #29 (5 up from the end)

i started to read it but can't finish it.

hehe! perfect Halleck
its great to see every now and then someone makes sense of my ranting, (most ppl leave the coffee' shop when I walk in)
if ya have something to say you might as well justify it!

my book will be available soon!

LS no hurry it took me 4 years to read my first novel (well, it was a Stephen King short story)

Maybe bulleted lists would be more appropriate than novels in this case...

I thought it was a nice rant. My generation suffers from a very short attention span, i can still read thru a rant like that (hurray) but writing one myself, although i'd like to sometimes, i just cant keep focused on one thing for that long

i couldn't finish it because it was an obvious rant.

so i didn't consider it a rant but rather

bitching.

luckily your bitching is much shorter lived

see i agreed with some of his points (matter of factly all of them) but thing is ..i've learned that people that usually bitch about not needing new shit usually can't afford it..so that is WHY THEY REALLY ARE BITCHING but try hard to hide it with long drawn out bitch session on why they don't need it and why it won't help them make better music (they think their thinking on the topic is more logical and less bitching)...i should call it bitter not bitching.--yes i am sure he would pass up on free mac or whatever he fancy's FOR FREE BECAUSE THAT NEW STUFF WONT HELP HIM MAKE BETTER MUSIC. YES I'M POSITIVE OF THAT...AND THE POPES CHRISTIAN AS WELL.

his points in essences is this

a new stuff ain't gonna make you make better music. a new so and so won't help you work more effectifly if you work a certain way already

its how you use the shit you have and YOUR IDEAS AND WAY OF WORKING THAT THAT WILL AND DOES HELP YOU MAKE BETTER MUSIC-YOUR STYLE

but MY POINT- HIDE SO WELL IN MY SARCASM IS THIS if you are secure with who you are and what you do (and if you truely believe it all-YOU WON'T WRITE LONG RANTS TELLING OTHERS ABOUT IT

you'll either answer the question being asked or

you'll produce it. AND WHEN ITS ALL SAID AND DONE TELL THEM

"PUT THAT IN PRO TOOLS AND TOP THAT SHIT HOMIE"

that's why i call it a long bitch session. thats what it is. you know all this..you know a new mac won't make making music easier it won't make it better- you know a new mic won't record better vocals if you don't have the ideas on how to use it or set it up to catch the voice the way you want. etc etc etc etc etc. his long rant had nothing to do with answering the ACTUAL QUESTION ASKED. he told them why it doesn't work and how he works..NOT HOW SUCH AND SUCH WOULD HELP

soo why tell the world whats so obvious? either you have just a huge ego that you FEEL YOU KNOW BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE SO YOU MUST SAY SO (that's not what i think he was doing) which says a lot about said person to being with (and therefore i am sure the persons being told they bitch to much have been told this more than once) or youre just bitter about not being able to buy the latest stuff so you make up a reason (bitching or rant) about why you don't need it.

either way. bitching is bitching.

if you call my words bitching then thats what they are. but take this into consideration, i'm making a observation about what someones saying and why they are saying. i'm not talking about why i don't need new stuff and all its expenses and how it won't help me work better-he'll i'd love to have a new trition 88 weighed keys -or a grand piano to place in my apartment over looking san fran city etc (i actually do have one BUT I'D LOVE A BRAND NEW ONE) but the shit i have works fine for me and probably will do so until completely new crap comes out that chances music forever-because as i say lets face it you heard one 808 you heard them all-but i'll take that new stuff make no mistake about it if i COULD AFFORD IT.

and so would you

there's a huge difference.

i bitch when i talk about trance

god i hate trance it needs to take its ass back to europe and stay there.

oh and i also bitch about republicans

they got no clue.

Okay, will everyone cool off a little bit here?
It's really not that big a deal. So the guy wrote a long post. If you don't agree with him or his style, you don't have to read it.

hall i'm not mad at the guy. far from it. i said i agree with the guy. and i'm not mad at anton again far from it

we only learn when we hear whats on each others minds.

so its all cool man.

Okay... just rember that it's easy to misunderstand people when communicating through writing. You came off as a little pissed to me but it's hard to tell without the help of reading your tone of voice, facial expressions, body language, etc. that we are able to use in face-to-face conversation.

Also, typing in ALL CAPS is generally considered to be shouting.

Sorry if I'm imposing or whatnot, but as a moderator my job is to keep things civil.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<GROUP HUG>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>